Comparative study of guard grenadier wappen M60 and M95

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KAGGR 1870
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Comparative study of guard grenadier wappen M60 and M95

Post by KAGGR 1870 » Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:59 am

Hello
Here is one short study (without pretension!)
with comparatives pics between M60 and M95 guard eagle wappen
The M60 wappen was used during large period (1860-1895) and was replaced by M95 model
The successives wappen fixing system are screws (1860) sliders (1867) screws (1871-1895) and finally loops (1895)
The first difference is size
the M60 wappen is highest (the M95 helmet is more low than M60 and M67)
Height M60: 125mm M95: 115 mm
The width is the same

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Bernard

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Post by KAGGR 1870 » Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:05 am

Second
the star fixing system (the size of the stars are same )
M 60 have two: with screws or with loops

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M95 with loops (I have seen only this type)

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Bernard

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Post by KAGGR 1870 » Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:18 am

The wappen present three differents points
Wings, tail and sceptre

First point the wings
I- the shape of the edge right in M60 and hollow in M95
II- the end of the wing
III- the ends of the banderole
M60 to the edge of the wing
M95 more law
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Post by KAGGR 1870 » Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:25 am

Second point the tail

M60 narrow with feathers turned inside
M95 wide with feathers turned outside

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Post by KAGGR 1870 » Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:30 am

Last point sceptre
in the middle we can see
M60 fold to the right side
M95 to the left side
Regards

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Post by Tony without Kaiser » Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:43 pm

Very nice Bernard. You have a good eye for details.

But....

Neither of your Wappens are Guard Grenadier. :scratch:
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Post by KAGGR 1870 » Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:46 am

Hello
I can specify that (for infanterie)
At the begenning M60 eagle with star is guard eagle ( garde adler)
It is worn by garde zu Fuss regiments (Foot guard)
Garde grenadier regiment (guard grenadier) worn M60 grenadier adler (great eagle without star) like this

Image
Then in 1889
this guard eagle is given to the guard grenadier regiments
for this I have tittle the comparision "Guard grenadier eagle"
In 1895
new shape for guard eagle (worn by all guards regiments garde zu Fuss and garde grenadier)
At last in 1897-1914 the grenadier eagle M 97 (with new shape) is given to line grenadiers regiments (instead of their "old regiment eagle")
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Post by Tony without Kaiser » Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:02 pm

This is what I thought you meant. Here is a close-up of a Preußen M1860 Garde Grenadier Pickelhaube, altered after 28 August 1889 by the addition of the Garde star. You can see it is the M1860 pattern, and the star was placed directly over the Bandeau, covering the word "König".

Image

Logically, a proper M1895 Garde Grenadier Wappen, would be like your M1895 Garde zu Fuß that you showed first with the the Bandeau moved to the left so the word "König" is visible, but with "S" hilt on the sword and "artichoke" on the end of the scepter. However, I have never seen one, so perhaps they do not exist? Perhaps the M95 Garde Grenadier never had the Bandeau moved over like the Garde Regt zu Fuß? See the one below, it is M1895 Grenadier pattern with Garde star for Garde Grenadier, but the eagle Wappen has not changed, and the word "König" is still covered!

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Post by KAGGR 1870 » Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:49 am

Hello
thank you Tony: interresting technical discussion
Everyone know that the Prussian intendance was particularly very sparing and stingy (example the use of the M57 helmets last modified 60 and finaly modified 67 )
My opinion is that this type of grenadier eagle with added star is one expedient: the time to use all the obsolete old grenadier plates of the guard grenadier (the new helmets had to receive the guard standard plates)
From 1895 the eagle being different this type disappeared
All the eagles from the guard grenadier helmets I have observed are of the standard guard eagle type (sword with right hilt, bandeau moved)
I think your M95 ( grenadier plate with star) is one punctual production at the begenning of the war but not standard model
It would be interressant to have the opinion of other collectors
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Bernard

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Post by joerookery » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:21 pm

Bernard,

This is fascinating! Do you think this applies also to the LG? Is this an old-style LG without a star?
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Post by KAGGR 1870 » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:41 am

Hello
Sorry joerookery for this long delay but I have no answer about LG wappen
To finish my study here are the rear 1860 wappen fasteners
For this I present you this nickel silver wappen worn by
GRzF 1 and GFR ( Firth foot guard regiment and guard fusilier regiment)
The soldered screws are brass made with 3.5 mm diameter and old metric thread of 10 (this measures are the same on other M60 and M71 wappens)
Fakes and copys have not this thread
Nuts are either lozengic cast brass with one stirrup or square iron (or brass) (see pics)
Guard M95 have soldered standard brass loops
Regards

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Post by Tony without Kaiser » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:27 am

It is always a pleasure Bernard to read your research. Very enjoyable. You have a good eye.
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Post by JR92 » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:03 pm

Hello,

And what about this one ? Like a guard eagle, but without holes...

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\:D/
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Post by KAGGR 1870 » Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:39 pm

Hello
For me non used and non issue wappen
Regards
Bernard

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Post by JR92 » Sun Apr 13, 2008 6:00 am

Hello,

Her a Garde Grenadier Helmet Ml 1960.

Best regards

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Post by KAGGR 1870 » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:37 am

Hello
To complete my study of the guard wappens
I have recently found this wappen but I have a problem because it have mixed characteristics of the M.60 and M.95 wappen.
1- The size of the wappen , the size and the shape of the eagle head are of the M 1860 type.
The same with the screw mount.
2-Wings:
M.60 characters: the banderole come to the edge of the wing
M.95 characters: the wing is curved and the end with three feathers
Special character: the detailed feathers at the bend of the wings on both sides of the head. (no observed in M60 and M95)
3-Tail:
mixture of the both type : the 5 feathers are turned inside
(M.60 characters) but the feathers are organized like M.95 model (Central feather below the others).
4- sceptre: like M95
So, at this moment I'm in the hypothesis: I think transition model 1871?
What do you think?
Regards

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Bernard

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