Model 1867 Prussian Infantry

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SkipperJohn
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Model 1867 Prussian Infantry

Post by SkipperJohn » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:42 pm

Here is my new Model 1867 Prussian Infantry Pickelhaube:

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It is in unbelievably good shape showing very little wear other than some minor shrinkage:

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Typical for all Model 1867's it has only one Kokarde:

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Also typical for the Model 1867 it does not have a rear spine:

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What is not so typical is that the Wappen is held on with screw posts and not sliders. I am not sure why, but I'm certain many purest's would frown on this. Also the Wappen appears to be just slightly too large for this helmet. The Prussian Wappen size was reduced from 125mm (top of crown to tip of tail feathers) down to 120mm in 1860 to accommodate a reduced helmet size. This Wappen is 124mm. The Wappen had formed a groove in the front visor behind the chinscales. When I carefully removed the Wappen to see if sliders had ever been attached and to see if the slider slots were still present on the helmet I found that I could not get the Wappen to stay in the groove it had made any longer (live and learn).

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The Wappen is the proper three tail feather type, "vVv" found on M67's and there is no indication that it ever had sliders, only screws. Also there is no indication that the helmet had the metal slots for sliders, only holes.

The liner of this helmet is in pristine condition for it's age:

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There are no markings on this helmet what-so-ever; no size, no unit, no maker, no name, absolutely nothing.

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Overall I am pleased with this Model 1867. I just wish I had a few more answers.

John :)

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stuka f
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Re: Model 1867 Prussian Infantry

Post by stuka f » Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:34 am

Very nice!
Congrats.
Always looking for Belgian Congo stuff!
http://virtueel-museum-antwerpen.webnode.be/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
cheers
|<ris
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J.LeBrasseur
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Re: Model 1867 Prussian Infantry

Post by J.LeBrasseur » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:06 am

Nice find John, gotta love those early helmets.

James
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kaiser
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Re: Model 1867 Prussian Infantry

Post by kaiser » Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:25 pm

That is a real beauty

Well done finding it

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Re: Model 1867 Prussian Infantry

Post by USMC-EOD » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:29 pm

DAMN, Marine. That is a clean Model 1867. Absolutely beautiful!

I do not own one yet, but a buddy of mine out in SoCal has a couple. Yours is way nicer than any I have seen. Congrats on a really nice helmet.

That wappen seems remenicient of the wappen used on pre-1900 issue line cuirassier enlisted helmets made by C E Junkers that i have seen. Just spitballing off of my limited observations. Perhaps others could chime in. As soon as I think I have seen it all, I realise what a novice I truly am. :)

If it is original to the helmet, it does seem odd that it would extend down to the brim and smush into that area...

S/F

Bryan.

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Re: Model 1867 Prussian Infantry

Post by SkipperJohn » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:08 pm

USMC-EOD wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:29 pm
DAMN, Marine. That is a clean Model 1867. Absolutely beautiful!

I do not own one yet, but a buddy of mine out in SoCal has a couple. Yours is way nicer than any I have seen. Congrats on a really nice helmet.

That wappen seems remenicient of the wappen used on pre-1900 issue line cuirassier enlisted helmets made by C E Junkers that i have seen. Just spitballing off of my limited observations. Perhaps others could chime in. As soon as I think I have seen it all, I realise what a novice I truly am. :)

If it is original to the helmet, it does seem odd that it would extend down to the brim and smush into that area...

S/F

Bryan.
Good to have you home and glad to hear that you are finally retiring.
In the original post I took the photo at an angle that made it look like the Wappen was much longer than it really is. The Wappen only extends below the front visor by three to four millimeters. From the profile photos you can see that the Wappen basically fits flat to the shell.

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You can see the groove it made in the front visor. You can also see where the scepter:

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And the orb:

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have made a permanent indentation in the visor.

The helmet is a smaller size, unmarked but probably a 55 or 56, so maybe that accounts for the Wappen appearing over-sized.
Don't know.

S/F
John :)

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Spiker
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Re: Model 1867 Prussian Infantry

Post by Spiker » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:05 am

They use to cut down older higher helmets and adjust them to the new standard , so sometimes the wappen will not always leave a deep mark , nice find. :thumb up:
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Re: Model 1867 Prussian Infantry

Post by edwin » Mon May 20, 2019 4:03 pm

Nice helmet.

Regards,

Edwin

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Re: Model 1867 Prussian Infantry

Post by Sandmann » Tue May 21, 2019 10:43 am

Congratulations, a nice Helmet :bravo:
Best wishes, Sandy

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Re: Model 1867 Prussian Infantry

Post by Jaap Verduijn » Tue May 21, 2019 1:08 pm

Spectacular piece!
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Favourite quote: "Ninety percent of everything is bullshit".

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aicusv
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Re: Model 1867 Prussian Infantry

Post by aicusv » Wed May 22, 2019 10:43 am

Great piece - I had one years ago and sold it because it wasn't WW1 ](*,)
fezzes frigidus es

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Re: Model 1867 Prussian Infantry

Post by USMC-EOD » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:39 am

Hey John,
I called my buddy back in California about his wappen and the general description of his M1867.
His wappen is identical to yours; it utilizes screw posts, and his shell has holes that match up to the posts. No slider slots.
Additionally, his spike uses screw posts as well, and oddly, the helmet has a rear spine.
He will send me pics later today. PM me if you would like me to send you pics to compare.

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Re: Model 1867 Prussian Infantry

Post by USMC-EOD » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:25 pm

Ah, geez, John...

Belay my last post. My buddy back in California has a Model 1860 with the same wappen as yours. Not a Model 1867. I must have had my brain housing group rattled around by too many IEDs...

For some reason my mind was focusing on your wappen rather than the whole helmet.

S/F

Bryan.

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Re: Model 1867 Prussian Infantry

Post by SkipperJohn » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:19 pm

Bryan,
Sorry it took so long to answer this post. I was away on business and, of course, the internet was not accessible.
Several M1860's can be found with this Wappen. The consensus is that this type Wappen with the three vertical tail feathers "vVv" did not come out until 1867. The Wappen with all three tail feathers the same length did not come out until much later, "vvv".
The Prussians were not partial to throwing things away, so these helmets were kept in service by replacing any parts needed with newer production parts.
Semper Fi,
John

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Re: Model 1867 Prussian Infantry

Post by KAGGR 1870 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:21 am

Hello
This pickelhaube was modified after 1871. All the M 1867 pickelhaube have only M1867 wappen with two sliders (never bolts).
When the plate has been lost we can found two types of assembly (both with M1871 wappen)
For this pickelhaube the wappen is standard Mod 1871 with threaded bolts; in this case it is necessary to observe the two front holes of the pickelhaube to see if they have been enlarged and if there remain traces (inner side) of the brackets of the two removed sliders mounts, often hidden by large washers.
The second type that we can found is the M1871 wappen with two sliders. Of course, in this case the two sliders mounts are still present

Regards

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Bernard

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Re: Model 1867 Prussian Infantry

Post by Spiker » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:43 am

Interesting contribution :thumb up:
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Re: Model 1867 Prussian Infantry

Post by SkipperJohn » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:24 pm

KAGGR 1870 wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:21 am
Hello
This pickelhaube was modified after 1871. All the M 1867 pickelhaube have only M1867 wappen with two sliders (never bolts).
When the plate has been lost we can found two types of assembly (both with M1871 wappen)
For this pickelhaube the wappen is standard Mod 1871 with threaded bolts; in this case it is necessary to observe the two front holes of the pickelhaube to see if they have been enlarged and if there remain traces (inner side) of the brackets of the two removed sliders mounts, often hidden by large washers.
The second type that we can found is the M1871 wappen with two sliders. Of course, in this case the two sliders mounts are still present

Regards
We have had this conversation before. The M1867 Wappen could have been configured with the straight tail feathers or the short tail feathers in a "vVv" configuration. Tony has a perfect example here:

http://www.kaisersbunker.com/pe/pe02d.htm

I have no reason to doubt that Tony's Oldenberg is a Model 1867 and it clearly has the "vVv" tail feather configuration. Or maybe it's a Model 1871 but missing a rear spine?

As I mentioned in the post there are no marks on this helmet what-so-ever, so it could also be said that the helmet Wappen is correct but the Kokarde is not. Not every contingent used the sliders. Bremen and Anhalt never adopted the sliders. Perhaps this helmet should have a Bremen Kokarde.
Could this helmet have been modified so that it could be retained in service? Of course it could. There is no indication that sliders (which usually leave two small holes for each clip when removed) had ever been attached to this helmet, and the holes for the Wappen have not been enlarged.

John :)

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Re: Model 1867 Prussian Infantry

Post by KAGGR 1870 » Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:57 pm

Hello
Curiously most of the M 67 pickelhaube with M1871 wappen with sliders are from the great-duchy of Oldenburg, the ones that I have or I have seen, have only M 67 prussian standard eagle with oldenburg coat of arm.
You say "Not every contingent used the sliders. Bremen and Anhalt never adopted the sliders."
Yes for the first assertion but l don't know where you have found the second assertion ??
To my knowledge the only states that no have used sliders on M67 pickelhaube in war period are:
Baden, Hessen, Mecklemburg and Saxen with threaded screws,
all the others used sliders particularly all the states with "Fuerst" eagle.
Can you make pics of the two holes without eagle particularly of the inner side ?
Regards
Bernard

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Re: Model 1867 Prussian Infantry

Post by KAGGR 1870 » Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:42 pm

Here are pics of one standard oldengurgische wappen Mod 1867 never disassembled



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Image
Bernard

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Re: Model 1867 Prussian Infantry

Post by SkipperJohn » Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:18 pm

There is no indication that slider clips were ever attached to this helmet and the holes for the screw attachments have not been enlarged. The hole for the screw on the right side has been slightly stretched upward probably due to the stress put on it from the front visor.

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One of the best indicators that this Wappen has been on this helmet for years is the way it has deformed the front visor. The downward stress of the Wappen has put a permanent indentation in the visor and has formed a "U" shape where the visor attaches to the shell. The stitching is tight indicating that a slow but steady force was required to cause this deformation. I doubt that a Wappen with slider attachments would have been capable of exerting this type of force.

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John :)

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