IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

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b.loree
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IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by b.loree » Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:30 pm

An ultra rare officer pickelhaube from the J Turinetti collection, the Zahlmeister or Paymaster helmet:
Compresed Fig 4.1 IR 92 Zahlmeister DSCN17610101.JPG
The miniature brass eagle attached to the eagle tail indicates Zahlmeister.
Compresed Fig 4.1 IR 92 Zahlmeister DSCN17620202.JPG
Compresed Fig 4.1 IR 92 Zahlmeister DSCN17630303.JPG
Compresed Fig 4.1 IR 92 Zahlmeister DSCN17650505.JPG
Remember, Pillage first THEN Burn ...

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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by J.LeBrasseur » Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:22 pm

wow, that is so cool.

James
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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by coert65 » Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:52 pm

Very nice helmet! :thumb up:

Greetings, Coert.

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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by stuka f » Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:54 pm

Very nice.
Surprised to see that combination.
Does it mean they had the little Zahlmeister eagle for every regiment. Meaning it may be sitting on every special helmet plate.
By special helmet plate I mean every Prussian line eagle plate with a additional bandeau or other items ?
Always looking for Belgian Congo stuff!
http://virtueel-museum-antwerpen.webnode.be/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by b.loree » Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:58 pm

Stuka, I will leave the answer to that question to more experienced collectors.
Remember, Pillage first THEN Burn ...

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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by stuka f » Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:03 pm

Thank you.
No hurry, just curious....
Always looking for Belgian Congo stuff!
http://virtueel-museum-antwerpen.webnode.be/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by Sandmann » Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:36 am

stuka f wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:54 pm
Very nice.
Surprised to see that combination.
Does it mean they had the little Zahlmeister eagle for every regiment. Meaning it may be sitting on every special helmet plate.
By special helmet plate I mean every Prussian line eagle plate with a additional bandeau or other items ?
As I know the little Eagle is a general sign for a military official (Militär-Beamter)
Sources of following pics „KNÖTEL, COLLAS, P. PIETSCH: Uniformenkunde - Das Deutsche Heer - Friedensuniformen bei Ausbruch des Weltkrieges Bd. 3“
B79644A8-5E4C-44BA-AE90-346965245387.jpeg
ABD342C4-80CD-4A04-9B80-2F29A14C617C.jpeg
Best wishes, Sandy

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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by stuka f » Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:33 am

Great info.
Thanks, made me a little less dumb.
;-)
Always looking for Belgian Congo stuff!
http://virtueel-museum-antwerpen.webnode.be/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by KAGGR#1 » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:00 pm

I think that every regiment would have a Paymaster
and the small Prussian eagle on each Paymaster's front plate .
Other Paymasters of non-Prussian regiments would have the
different small emblems as shown on the D D H plate posted above .
That I R 92 was formally my helmet that I traded to Jim T.
at this year's S O S 2020.
The reason we don't see them very often as there was only
one Paymaster per regiment I think
Steve McFarland

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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by b.loree » Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:01 am

It sort of makes sense that an officer who is responsible for distributing Government funds to his Regiment would have some sort of "distinction" on his helmet and uniform.
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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by Sandmann » Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:20 am

Does anybody have a picture of an bavarian paymaster Helmet? On the extracted sites I posted there are little plates for Reich, Prussia, Saxony, Baden, Hessen, Mecklenburg, Schwerin Strelitz, but no Bavaria. I cant’t believe that no little bavarian paymaster plate exits?
Best wishes, Sandy

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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by KAGGR#1 » Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:56 pm

Good question .It seems that there are surely Bavarian Pay Masters .
However the Bavarian Armee seemed to have their own way of doing things
If anyone comes up with a reference on Bavarian Pay Master it would
be interesting to see . Maybe Chip knows ?
Steve McFarland

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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by J.LeBrasseur » Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:36 pm

Thought I would show examples of a few I have showing the different small wappen on the big wappen.

James

1) Saxon

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2) Baden

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3) Prussian

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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by stuka f » Fri Mar 06, 2020 2:35 am

Thanks for sharing!
I have seen the Prussian one a few times, and the Saxon maybe once, but the Baden is new to me.
Always looking for Belgian Congo stuff!
http://virtueel-museum-antwerpen.webnode.be/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
cheers
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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by pickelhauben » Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:32 am

Very nice pieces.
I would like to see a Wurt pictured if there is one out there.
The 92 is fantastic.

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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by Sandmann » Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:47 am

Thanks for sharing. Really nice Helmets and interesting to see :bravo:
Best wishes, Sandy

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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by stuka f » Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:02 am

Found some information in those booklets.
Dating from the early '70 ties.
Don't know how reliable they are...
Will post it asap.
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Always looking for Belgian Congo stuff!
http://virtueel-museum-antwerpen.webnode.be/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by Tony without Kaiser » Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:11 am

This IR92 Zahlmeister is one of the amazing Pickelhauben I have ever seen. I had the pleasure of visiting Steve M.(KAGGR#1) in 2007, and I had my nose pressed up against the glass so long looking at this helmet, that Steve had to use window cleaner to get my nose prints off. Absolutely perfect superb textbook IR92 stamped Totenkopf. A unique helmet.

Here is my contribution, a rather rare Hessen Unterzahlmeister.

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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by b.loree » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:43 pm

Wow!! I never saw that beauty the last time I paid you a visit!! When we get out of this virus crap I am going to have to darken your door yet again! Loops on the reverse or screw post? Totally awesome wappen! Keep up the posts T, we need to keep our "shut in" members busy during this pandemic! :thumb up:
Remember, Pillage first THEN Burn ...

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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by KAGGR#1 » Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:24 pm

Tony ;
Great Hessian plate ! I had never seen one before .
Thanks for posting the photo .
Yes , that is the same helmet that was mine
I traded it at the S O S 2020
It now has a new owner .
BTW ; I got the Kube auction catalog yesterday
there are some amazing front plates up for auction
the entire catalog nothing but front plates and ringkragen .
The collection of R. A. Harden .
I do not know this collector .
maybe some of you out there know him ?
Steve McFarland

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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by Sandmann » Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:44 am

Wonderful Hessen-Plate :bravo:
Hope we‘ll get all Zahlmeister-Plates together, would be great :)
Looking forward to see the uploads from the 2 Books, I don‘t know them :arrow:
Best wishes, Sandy

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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by stuka f » Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:17 am

I'll try to pass them on to night.
Meanwhile; amazing collection of front plats indeed.
Here is the link to the catalog;
http://my.page2flip.de/428677/18626879/ ... 5.html#/36
Always looking for Belgian Congo stuff!
http://virtueel-museum-antwerpen.webnode.be/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by Sandmann » Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:35 am

After investigating for this Zahlmeister-Post I have found these hardcover Books for a fair price and I‘m very happy to own it now :D
39DB4C90-7010-4FDD-BC1A-58CC3502AB9C.jpeg
Here are the written informations about the „Oberzahlmeister“ out of Volume I of the Books „Uniformenkunde - Das Deutsche Heer: Friedensuniformen bei Ausbruch des Weltkrieges - Volumes I-III“):
The troops administration business was carried out by the Paymaster, who had emerged from the former "Accounting Officers". The Senior-Paymasters (Oberzahlmeister) and Paymaster (Zahlmeister) were Military-Officials (middle Officials), the Sub-Paymasters (Unterzahlmeister) were Soldiers. In general, for each government staff a Senior-Paymaster was responsible for clothing management, for each Battalion-Staff or Departmental-Staff a Paymaster and a Sub-Paymaster as "Treasurer". Cavalry-Regiments had only one Paymaster-Officer and one Sub-Paymaster, while Engineer-Battalions had 2 Officers and one Sub-Paymaster.
For all Paymasters, it was mandatory to wear uniforms like Officers. But the uniform of the Hospital-Administrationofficers, Provincial-Officers, Garrison-Administrationofficers and Clothing-Departmentofficials had badges made of white cloth instead of the cornflower-blue, lemon-yellow, light-blue or poncea-red badges. However, the Paymaster had silver buttons, which were always smooth (even for Officials, because they were Military-Officials). Accordingly they had silver Epaulette-Crescents, silver-blue Epaulet-Braids (Epauletten-Tressen) and Tress-loops (Passanten-Tressen) and Shoulders. The Military-Officials also the silver-blue Military-Officialsportépee.
The helmet had a rounded front- and rear visor and a smooth spike on a round disc, a helmet eagle with a foreign exchange band and a small eagle.
Hope my translation is correct. If not, here is the original Text in German:
Die Truppenverwaltungsgeschäfte erfolgten durch die Zahlmeister, die aus den früheren "Rechnungsführenden Offizieren" hervorgegangen waren. Die Oberzahlmeister und Zahlmeister waren Militärbeamte (mittlere Beamte), die Unterzahlmeister Personen des Soldatenstandes. Im allgemeinen war für jeden Regierungsstab ein Oberzahlmeister etatmäßig, dem die Bekleidungsverwaltung oblag, für jeden Bataillionsstab oder Abteilungsstab ein Zahlmeister und ein Unterzahlmeister als "Kassenverwaltung". Kavallerie-Regimenter hatten nur einen Zahlmeister-Beamten und einen Unterzahlmeister, Pionier-Bataillione dagegen 2 Beamte und einen Unterzahlmeister.
Für alle Zahlmeister war ständiges Uniformtragen Vorschrift, wie für Offiziere. Uniform der Lazarettverwaltung-, Proviantamts-, Garnisionsverwaltung- und Bekleidungsamtsbeamten, jedoch mit Abzeichen aus weißem Tuch an Stelle der bei diesen kornblumenblauen, zitronengelben, hellblauen oder ponceauroten Abzeichen. Die Zahlmeister hatten jedoch silberne Knöpfe, die auch bei den Beamten - da Militärbeamte - stets glatt waren, und dementsprechend silberne Epaulettenhalbmonde, silbern-blaue Epaulett- und Passanten-Tresses und Achselstücke, die Militärbeamten außerdem das silbern-blaue Militärbeamtenportepee.
Der Helm hatte einen gerundeten Vorder- und Hinterschirm und eine glatte Spitze auf runder Scheibe, Helmadler mit Devisenband und kleinem Adler.
Best wishes, Sandy

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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by stuka f » Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:34 pm

Nice books!
Here I am with what I found.
Image
Image
Image

Coming from;
Image
Image

Pic's are very pore and only in black and white.
Good documentation was rare to find in those days....
Always looking for Belgian Congo stuff!
http://virtueel-museum-antwerpen.webnode.be/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
cheers
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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by KAGGR#1 » Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:56 pm

That you for posting this .
I had not seen these 2 books before.
Steve McFarland

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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by Tony without Kaiser » Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:31 am

Very nice Baden example James. I have never seen one before. I collect to Baden, so now I have yet another Wappen to keep my eye open for.

Shameless Plug >> http://www.kaisersbunker.com/wantlist_wappens.htm

Seeing as this has turned into a very interesting Zahlmeister thread, here is my Sachsen Zahlmeister

Image

And of course, the Preußen Zahlmeister

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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by KAGGR#1 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:00 pm

Tony ;
Great plates
thanks for the photos
Steve McFarland

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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by Arran » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:31 pm

I just came across this helmet for auction in Germany- does it fit in here as a Brunswick Zahlmeister's helmet?
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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by KAGGR#1 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:48 pm

It has some of the features , but I don't know what it is . A reserve officer , I
don't see how a reserve officer could be the paymaster ? There is no small
Prussian eagle at the bottom of the front plate like on the helmet
of Jim T.
Steve McFarland

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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by GardeUlan » Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:28 am

Have a look at lot 23.

https://www.versteigerungshaus.de/site/ ... Only=false

Strange so many IR 92 Zahlmeister around.

Are they still in production?

Garde-Ulan

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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by Sandmann » Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:44 am

In the prussian regulations I found it is written that a Paymaster-Helmet looks very much like an Infantry-Helmet with a round Visor and Spikebase, a smooth Spike and a Frontplate-Eagle with „FR“ and banner. But all Fittings in silver and the Chinscale convex and also silver (the same what stuka f has posted).
The IR 92 Helmet above has a square Visor, so I don‘t think it is a Paymaster-Helmet. Unfortunately I found some more Helmets in the Internet which were called „Paymaster“, but which did not meet the characteristics above :-k
Best wishes, Sandy

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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by Tony without Kaiser » Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:49 pm

Yes. Cruciform spike base and square visor is a Militär Beamte official. Not Zahlmeister.

I have no comment on originality.
Sandmann wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:44 am
In the prussian regulations I found it is written that a Paymaster-Helmet looks very much like an Infantry-Helmet with a round Visor and Spikebase, a smooth Spike and a Frontplate-Eagle with „FR“ and banner. But all Fittings in silver and the Chinscale convex and also silver (the same what stuka f has posted).
The IR 92 Helmet above has a square Visor, so I don‘t think it is a Paymaster-Helmet. Unfortunately I found some more Helmets in the Internet which were called „Paymaster“, but which did not meet the characteristics above :-k
Kaiser: 09 July 1997 - 12 October 2010.
Nina: 23 April 2002 - 31 July 2015.
I miss my little Noodles.
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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by Mc5051 » Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:05 am

F7BFB131-DBEC-4F1F-8181-8C0C82D10B8C.jpeg
Heres my Saxon, originally purchased from a Kube auction but he listed it as a Pharmacist (apotheke) helmet, so now a little confused.
Cheers Glen

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Re: IR 92 Zahlmeister Helmet

Post by edwin » Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:06 pm

Awesome helmets, thanks for sharing!

Regards,

Edwin

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