KAGGR#1 JzP helmets

This section is devoted to the steel helmets worn by the Kürassier and Jäger zu Pferde regiments prior to and during WW1

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b.loree
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KAGGR#1 JzP helmets

Post by b.loree » Mon May 18, 2020 2:46 pm

Today's post from Steve....His JzP helmets:
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Image
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Re: KAGGR#1 JzP helmets

Post by JohnM » Tue May 19, 2020 7:09 am

Wow! Just WOW!!! Fantastic!!!!

John

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Re: KAGGR#1 JzP helmets

Post by Amybellars » Tue May 19, 2020 11:42 pm

:D :D What is the address for Steve's house where the collection is housed??

Anyone wants to join me to visit the house with a trolley and pick as you go. Say, you are allowed 30 mins or till fill up your shopping trolley whichever comes first. Then you are allowed to go home =D> =D>

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Re: KAGGR#1 JzP helmets

Post by aicusv » Thu May 21, 2020 12:30 pm

Amybellars wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:42 pm
:D :D What is the address for Steve's house where the collection is housed??

Anyone wants to join me to visit the house with a trolley and pick as you go. Say, you are allowed 30 mins or till fill up your shopping trolley whichever comes first. Then you are allowed to go home =D> =D>
Will not work - with most of the nation in quarantine he'll more than likely be home. :eek:
fezzes frigidus es

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Re: KAGGR#1 JzP helmets

Post by Sandmann » Sat May 23, 2020 12:01 pm

Really superb, I hope I will also have such a collection one day :bravo:
Best wishes, Sandy

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Re: KAGGR#1 JzP helmets

Post by JzPf » Sat May 23, 2020 2:39 pm

Always enjoy seeing JzP helmet collections!

Dennis

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Re: KAGGR#1 JzP helmets

Post by SkipperJohn » Sat May 23, 2020 4:47 pm

Beautiful helmets!
I especially like seeing the Model 1915 with the smaller, 48mm, Kokarden.
A few years ago I posted one of my JzP's only to be told by another forum member that a 48mm Kokarde was never used on these.
Good to see another example.

John :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:

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Re: KAGGR#1 JzP helmets

Post by 911car » Sat May 23, 2020 8:25 pm

SkipperJohn wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 4:47 pm
I especially like seeing the Model 1915 with the smaller, 48mm, Kokarden.
A few years ago I posted one of my JzP's only to be told by another forum member that a 48mm Kokarde was never used on these.
Good to see another example.
John, how does this suggest that small cockades were ever worn on JzP helmets during WW1??
Or did I misunderstand your comment?..

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Re: KAGGR#1 JzP helmets

Post by SkipperJohn » Sat May 23, 2020 9:20 pm

911car wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:25 pm
SkipperJohn wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 4:47 pm
I especially like seeing the Model 1915 with the smaller, 48mm, Kokarden.
A few years ago I posted one of my JzP's only to be told by another forum member that a 48mm Kokarde was never used on these.
Good to see another example.
John, how does this suggest that small cockades were ever worn on JzP helmets during WW1??
Or did I misunderstand your comment?..
The first photo in this post shows a Model 1915 with the smaller Kokarden.
I suppose that KAGGR#1 could have replaced the cockades with the incorrect type, but I kind of doubt it.

John :)

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Re: KAGGR#1 JzP helmets

Post by 911car » Sun May 24, 2020 1:40 am

John, even if Steve got the helmet with these small cockades, the probability that it came like this straight from WW1 is very low. As we know, all these removable parts have been lost, shuffled, replaced: cockades, chinstraps, sometimes spikes (Steve's M15 does not seem to have the special JzP spike either). Only in relatively rare instances do we find enlisted helmets with their undoubtedly original cockades, and these are usually leather helmets, where these have left clear prints in the shellac.
Therefore, the old question remains unanswered, at least for me: were Kurassier and JzP enlisted helmets also worn with small cockades? In my opinion, these are seen in collections because large cockades have been lost and are not available for replacement, but I would be happy to learn something if someone could prove me wrong by showing a period photograph.

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Re: KAGGR#1 JzP helmets

Post by Tony without Kaiser » Sun May 24, 2020 11:14 am

Here is my FNM M15 JzP bought in 1988 at the Vancouver Militaria show, from Chris Brunner (now sadly passed on).

It is of no concern to me if at some point the Kokarden were replaced. But as Bruno said, all it takes is one period image to put this to rest. I have had spare large Kürassier Kokarden over the years, and still did not change what the helmet came with.

Image

Image
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Re: KAGGR#1 JzP helmets

Post by KAGGR#1 » Sun May 24, 2020 12:02 pm

Ditto Tony
I have spare large Kokards
I just never did make the change
Steve McFarland

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Re: KAGGR#1 JzP helmets

Post by SkipperJohn » Sun May 24, 2020 3:00 pm

But as Bruno said, all it takes is one period image to put this to rest.
It seems that 99.9% of the WW1 period photographs of Jäger zu Pferde and Kürassier show the soldier with his helmet covered by an Uberzug, making it virtually impossible to identify fittings.
I have only been able to uncover one period photograph that appears to show an uncovered JzP helmet.
The helmet has a leather chinstrap with the proper fittings and, though not strikingly clear, appears to show a smaller Kokarde.
The soldier is outfitted with, what appears to be, a KAR98a; also true to the period.
This photograph is copyrighted and the owner has disabled the download function, so I cannot post it here.
I can; however, provide a link that will enable the zoom feature. When zoomed into the helmet the outline of the Kokarde can be seen.
Though likely not conclusive proof, the photograph does provide compelling evidence:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/paranoid_womb/7204421390

Here is a photograph of my helmet:

Image

This helmet shows very little wear. It may have never actually been issued.

John :)

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Re: KAGGR#1 JzP helmets

Post by 911car » Sun May 24, 2020 3:22 pm

The cockade on the JzP period photo seems to be indeed of the small size!
Thank you for posting it.

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Re: KAGGR#1 JzP helmets

Post by JohnM » Mon May 25, 2020 12:16 pm

https://www.flickr.com/photos/drakegoodman/34359625803

Here we have an excellent photo of what I believe is the small cockade and monstrously large paw on this man..

https://www.facebook.com/TheTruthInColo ... =3&theater

I saved the photo and enlarged it. Seems to be the smaller version to me.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15783375667

In the above picture I believe that we have a large cockade on a JzP helmet for an NCO.


Also I found this very interesting photo of an NCO and you can clearly see he has an officers fluted spike on what I must assume is a private purchase helmet.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8649449842



John

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Re: KAGGR#1 JzP helmets

Post by SkipperJohn » Tue May 26, 2020 2:18 pm

JohnM wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 12:16 pm
https://www.flickr.com/photos/drakegoodman/34359625803

Here we have an excellent photo of what I believe is the small cockade and monstrously large paw on this man..

https://www.facebook.com/TheTruthInColo ... =3&theater

I saved the photo and enlarged it. Seems to be the smaller version to me.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15783375667

In the above picture I believe that we have a large cockade on a JzP helmet for an NCO.


Also I found this very interesting photo of an NCO and you can clearly see he has an officers fluted spike on what I must assume is a private purchase helmet.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8649449842



John
I believe that all of those are the Model 1905 type, and that all have the larger Kokarden.

John :)

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Re: KAGGR#1 JzP helmets

Post by b.loree » Wed May 27, 2020 2:46 pm

A JzP from Adam:
IMG_1050a.JPG
I will let Adam comment on his helmet.
Remember, Pillage first THEN Burn ...

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Re: KAGGR#1 JzP helmets

Post by Pontiac9999 » Wed May 27, 2020 11:41 pm

Thank you very much for posting this for me Brian. I plan on photographing all of my collection one day under better lighting with different angles!

This is my only Jager Zu Pferde helmet. It is a M15 made by CE Juncker. It is complete and even has the large size Kockades. There is some wear / loss of the zinc plating on the spike but otherwise it is a perfect example. The liner is tan colored and fully intact. The part that amazes me the most is that it fully retains it's original Bluing fininsh (no rust spot!)

Thanks again Brian posting it. I have had this helmet for about 7 years now and maybe in the near future I will upload some more pics to a web server and attach a link.

Adam

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Re: KAGGR#1 JzP helmets

Post by b.loree » Thu May 28, 2020 3:13 pm

You are welcome Adam, that is a very nice example and in excellent condition.
Remember, Pillage first THEN Burn ...

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