Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Ersatz Felt/Filz Pickelhauben

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vonkluck14
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Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by vonkluck14 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:43 am

Gents,

I wasn't looking for a Filzhaube, as I am not that fond of them. To me they have something un-martial, even pityfull..the symbol of the degeneration of the german war industry.. the next level would be one made of a newspaper with a spike on it..

This one appeared to be for sale in a town about 20 km from were I live. As the vendor had a few Haubes for sale, I decided to have a look at them. This Filzhaube appeared to be in perfect shape, with a fine patina on the metal parts. The liner is stitched as it should be, and in one piece. It came with the Kokardes, but without the chinstraps. It 'caught' me in a way, an as the price was more then o.k. I went for it!

I added chinstraps with more or less the same patina. I think they match nicely, allthough the metal parts are not of iron. I have one question on the rear spine were I would appreciate your input. As you can see, the spine is too short, and there is no ventilation hole in the Haube, so the ventilation had no effect what so ever. I am not for 100% sure whether the spine belongs on this helmet. I could remove it, but it would leave markings on the rear. Whats your opinion?

best regards,

Marcel




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Spiker
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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by Spiker » Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:42 am

I think the spike and spine might come from an other helmet ,the helmet looks too crisp
compared with dose metal parts , the wappen looks OK ,it blends in nicely with the shape of the helmet.

I wonder where you bought this … :-k
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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by vonkluck14 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:51 am

I've slightly lifted the base of the spike, it belongs to this helmet.

BTW I´ve bought it in the Netherlands Spiker, from a honest guy who is mostly into WW II helmets!

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Marcel
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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by weirdpyramid » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:06 am

Is there remnants of green paint on the eagle? kind of looks like it from the photo but it is very faint.

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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by vonkluck14 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:40 pm

No paint on the eagle.
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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by poniatowski » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:36 am

vonkluck14 wrote:No paint on the eagle.
Really? It looks like that gray-green type on late issue helmets. Pretty nice find I think! :)

:D Ron
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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by weirdpyramid » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:34 am

poniatowski wrote:Really? It looks like that gray-green type on late issue helmets.
Yeah thats what I am seeing too.

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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by Westfront » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:59 pm

I think the helmet is 100% original :thumb up: .

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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by RON » Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:49 pm

It looks OK to me too however, the question raised by Marcel remains as to why there's a ventilation lug on the spine and no ventilation hole underneath? :-k
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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by vonkluck14 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:22 am

And the fact that the spine is too short Ron! I wonder whether war time helmets like those sometimes were issued with what ever parts were in stock at the Bekleidungsamt, so tollerances as these were acceptable?

Apart from the missing hole for ventilation purposes, the rear spine helped to improve the stiffness of the helmet..

regards

Marcel
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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by poniatowski » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:20 am

vonkluck14 wrote:And the fact that the spine is too short Ron! I wonder whether war time helmets like those sometimes were issued with what ever parts were in stock at the Bekleidungsamt, so tollerances as these were acceptable?

Apart from the missing hole for ventilation purposes, the rear spine helped to improve the stiffness of the helmet..

regards

Marcel
Sounds right.

:D Ron
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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by Adler » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:46 am

At first sight it looks ok, but imo it's a helmet that was put together...
These are the reasons of my thinking:
1) the spine is to short and doesn't belong to the helmet. Not even with wishfull thinking about tolerances...
2) there is no dust build between the spike base and the helmet at all
3) the spike base has been moved a little, the imprint of the previous position is still visible in the fifth pic...
4) the helmet plate was rusted on the upper half and than cleaned up, the rivets are rusted and cleaned up, yet the spike itself is almost mint. This doesn't match with the condition of the helmetshell...
5) the rivets aren't bent completely, this looks not good for me...
6) the grey paint of the plate is completely different than the grey of the spike and base
Maybe all these little things apart are not bad after all, but putting them all together makes things suspicious for me... Maybe I'm wrong, but this is what I think... Hope this can help you...

Adler

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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by edwin » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:38 pm

I agree that there are certainly several issues with this helmet as already pointed out by other collectors. Although many of these issues can be explained, but I wonder to what extent these explanations are plausible and convincing when taken together.

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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by b.loree » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:00 pm

Here is my two cents worth, from what I can see in digital fotos. First the wappen is one of the Feldgrau types and does not match the spine or the spike which are both of the Grey painted variety. The secret here though is to look at the paint/patina on the M91 side posts. The wappen, spike, spine of any pickelhaube can be lost over time and replaced easily. However....the M91 posts are securely fixed to the shell. They can be removed but not easily....they go with the shell. So check the M91's thats the true colour of the original fittings on this helmet and any other M15. If you want you can also check the M91 fittings themselves for tampering.....any missing prongs or scratch marks on the renforcement discs, prongs tell you they have been messed with. Patina and paint colour are key on any M15 fittings. Anytime I ever had to replace a wappen or spike top on an M15 to complete it I always had to consider these two factors. In my years of collecting, I have seen the following types of "colour" associated with M15 wappen...feldgrau, grey, a silver grey and a sort of toffee brown colour (kakhi)
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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by Adler » Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:08 am

Not to forget the green ones... :-k

Adler

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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by b.loree » Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:31 pm

Beautiful Adler! I can always count on you, R1 et al to have primo examples of what I blether on about from past collecting experiences. Thank you as always. Anyone have an example of that brownish coloured wappen I mentioned? I have seen this colour of paint on belt hooks as well.
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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by vonkluck14 » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:20 pm

It's always nice to see how a '' modest'' Haube can cause such an interesting discussion on this forum..

I' m not able to post additional pics of the M91 posts right now, but will do so next week!

regards

Marcel
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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by vonkluck14 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:28 am

Gents,

Here are the pictures of the M91 sideposts. The colour of the sideposts matches the one on the spike base, spike and the eagle.

Best regards,
Marcel

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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by b.loree » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:47 pm

Ok Marcel. The side posts are obviously original to the helmet and you say they match the rest of the fittings. Consequently, I have to withraw my suggestion that the helme was assembled from "parts". My apologies and congrats on a nice addition to your collection.
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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by vonkluck14 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:46 am

Thanks for your comment Brian! However, I'm still in doubt about the rear spine.. It's obviously about one cm too short.. could this be a matter of war tolerance in material?
As said it's colour and patina perfectly matches the rest of the metal parts!

Best regards

Marcel
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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by SgtFury » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:35 am

Hello Lads ... I'm new to this site but a 40+ year collector of this stuff. My comment here could be copied and pasted into so many threads I have read so far, so here goes. My experience with this stuff is that the item termed "Standard" (especially of a 100 year old item!) will have variations. Pieces swapped in and out, replaced nuts, restitching, ... NOTHING surprizes me. But my point is that a variation is very often not a "fake", just an alteration performed maybe 100 years ago, maybe 25 years ago, to "help" the helmet. Sure! ... new and repro parts are detestable only to the extent they are represented as "original". I have no problems with someone putting on a replacement chinstrap or kokarden so long as they don't try to represent them as original ... but back to the crux of my point. Whether some poor grunt tried to improve the state of his gear back in WW1 or some collector wanted to fix something coming apart or missing from his item ... Let's try to take the whole story in and deal with it. It's hard to find 100+ year old items that haven't been touched somewhere, somehow, and I am as good as anyone else in finding them out. I would just like to think that we can do better to educate newer collectors, not decry honest, accidental misrepresentations as hate-able phonies, and live within the real world terms of our hobby. Old stuff gets changed. It's usually not a conspiracy theory or plot. Deal with it and (if you are a "senior" collector like myself) aim more to understand the real cowpies that naturally exist in this hobby, and educate and inform. (And for gawd's sake let's try to bring some more youth into the hobby ... a statement I would like to make my username were it not for the fact it is too long!) Fury

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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by badener » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:44 am

Amen Sarge! Welcome aboard. =D>
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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by b.loree » Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:24 pm

Yes, we need youth in this hobby and I have had this discussion with some major players on this forum. People with off the wall, phenomenal collections, knowledge and experience. We are mere curators of these items. Yes, they are investments but the bottom line is, we want them to survive for as long as possible. We want a younger generation to pass them on to. It would be interesting to look into the History of collecting......I know there were collectors of Napoleonic artifacts but are we the first generation of WW1 and WW2?? Are we the first generation to have the surplus time and money to be interested in this stuff? I think that the answer lies in the fact that these were world wars, total wars which involved millions of people unlike other wars. I am the son of a WW2 vet, my Grand father fought at the Dardanelles with the Highland Light Infantry. This is part of my experience. I have an interest in this hobby as a result.
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Re: Preussen Ersatz Filzhaube

Post by SgtFury » Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:03 am

As soon as my camera is operable, I'll post some pics of my Filzhaube ... One of the notable differences between the example so wonderfully documented here is that my front visor has brass trim (in same patina with dull brass spike setup and wappen). Liner is identical. Also different is that mine has no back spine, and absolutely no evidence that there ever was a spine. Hmmm! :?

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