Officer Silk Liners

Anything hauben

Moderators: b.loree, joerookery

Post Reply
User avatar
b.loree
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5656
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Ontario CN

Officer Silk Liners

Post by b.loree » Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:33 pm

I have been planning a post on the variations in colour and design, that we find on officer private purchase liners. I would like to thank Randy Trawnik from Age of Kings for granting permission to use pictures taken from their site. Let's take a look: ( ## This post is under reconstruction 2018-2020)
First an example of the officer liner worn 1842-1888:

Image
Note that the spine tang simply curves over the edge of the visor, no split brad holds it on. In addition, square tipped fingers with 2 holes and many in my experience have a sort of herringbone pattern on the leather.
IMG_5905.JPG
IMG_5904.JPG
Tschapka officer liner with metal Dukal Crown and Cypher, an extremely rare example.
IMG_5900.JPG
The tschapka itself, which I was fortunate to do some work on.
IMG_5780.JPG
A picture showing the unique way in which the tschapka officer sweatband is stitched on to the shell.
IMG_5249.JPG
A rare tschapka officer cloth liner made from linen/canvas, very soiled from use. I have never seen another like this.






A size button with manufacturer's initials.


Saxon Train Officer with the more expensive woven silk ribbon style of liner, lime green.

similar liner on a GdK officer helme. Note the cypher/initials stamped in gold on the silk. This is a rare feature in my experience.

Image
Baden Dragoner Officer liner, a wine colour.

Image Dark green liner, the only one I have encountered to date.
Image
Unusual Tschapka officer liner...heavy cotton.

Another high quality "ribboned" liner this time with white silk. A Bavarian Feld Arty helme in my collection.
Image

A rare Hessen officer helme from JR 117 with a surprise inside.
Image

Image
I had no idea that black was ever used!! :eek: My thanks once again to Randy T from Age of Kings for providing this pic of a rare helmet with a unique liner!
Remember, Pillage first THEN Burn ...

User avatar
b.loree
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5656
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Ontario CN

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by b.loree » Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:03 am

This is an example of a war time liner and typical of what they look like after 100 years. The cloth, which seems to have been a satin of some kind is extremely thin, like tissue paper. As such it does not stand the test of time.
[Image
Remember, Pillage first THEN Burn ...

KAGGR#1
Exceptional Contributor
Exceptional Contributor
Posts: 836
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:22 pm

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by KAGGR#1 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:24 am

Brian ;
I have heard that Royals seem to have white silk liners
in their helmets . I have a 1 Garde Regt zu Fuss to a Royal Prince
with a white silk liner . True or not I do not know .
I have had other Royal helmets over the years
but at the time , I paid no attention to the color of the liner .
it was of much more interest if their cypher with a crown
was on the liner .
I would guess if you had the money to spend
you could purchase whatever color of liner
that you wanted , as long as you had the money
to pay for it .

Steve

User avatar
poniatowski
Elite Member
Elite Member
Posts: 3650
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:47 pm
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by poniatowski » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:16 pm

Nice examples Brian!

I've heard that about royal helmets too, but I think in many cases, if not most or all, it was a matter of choice, except during war time when one probably had to get what one could.

Here's a Prussian infantry officer helmet (nothing special, fiber helmet), light gray-green silk:

Image


Image


Bavarian officer, infantry, etc. white silk:

Image

Image

Maker mark and liner on a Prussian General a'la Suite, light gray green silk:

Image

Image

Image

Since others were showing the exteriors as well as the liners, I added those for you folks.

:D Ron
Last edited by poniatowski on Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I really do need to know more about this....

User avatar
edwin
Elite Member
Elite Member
Posts: 2132
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:54 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by edwin » Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:46 pm

Interesting topic!

Thanks for starting this thread :D

Regards,

Edwin

Dragoner08
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:51 pm

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by Dragoner08 » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:13 am

Here a cuirassier officer . Brown silk ribbon style.

Gruß Dragoner08
Attachments
Epauletten, Schirmmütze, Helm 014.JPG

User avatar
Adler
Special Ranks Member
Special Ranks Member
Posts: 1801
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:45 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by Adler » Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:51 am

Here's my contribution:

Garde Landwehr Pionier
Image

Image


Pruissian M95 General
Image

Image


Bavarian M95 General (Prinz Alfons of Bavaria)
Image

Image


Bavarian wartime M15 officer Artillerie
Image

Image


Wurtemberg wartime M15 Reserve officer Infanterie
Image

Image


Saksen Anhalt M95 Inf. Officer
Image

Image


Mecklemburg M95 Officer Infanterie
Image

Image


Braunschweig IR92 M95 (post 1912) pickelhaube of Johan Albrecht (regent of Braunschweig)
Image

Image

KAGGR#1
Exceptional Contributor
Exceptional Contributor
Posts: 836
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:22 pm

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by KAGGR#1 » Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:25 pm

Hello Adler ;

Were you able to I D the owner of I R 92
" A " cypher on liner ?

Charles told me that he was able to visit you
last year

Steve

User avatar
J.LeBrasseur
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3538
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:14 pm
Location: U.S.A.

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by J.LeBrasseur » Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:38 pm

Here are a couple of my different ones, similar have been shown above.

First two are from Saxon officer helmets, next two including a wonderful AWS marked liner are from Garde officer helmets.

James

Image

Image

Image

Image
J.LeBrasseur

User avatar
Adler
Special Ranks Member
Special Ranks Member
Posts: 1801
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:45 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by Adler » Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:30 am

Were you able to I D the owner of I R 92
" A " cypher on liner ?
Yes, that's his monogram and also found out where the helmet came from.

Adler

Dragoner08
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:51 pm

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by Dragoner08 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:40 am

Here more pieces of me.

Gruß Dragoner08
Attachments
Gardereiter Offizier 007.JPG
Mecklenburg Schwerin 001.JPG
Mecklenburg Schwerin 008.JPG
Sachsen Weimar Eisenach 006.JPG
Pickelhaube Nr 94 001.JPG

Dragoner08
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:51 pm

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by Dragoner08 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:47 am

Personal helmet of Prince Heinrich zu Schaunburg-Lippe
Attachments
Kürassierhelm Prinz Heinrich von Schaumburg Lippe 002.JPG
Kürassierhelm Prinz Heinrich von Schaumburg Lippe 005.JPG

Dragoner08
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:51 pm

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by Dragoner08 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:49 am

Oldenburg
Attachments
Oldenburg Feldari Nr 62 002.JPG
Oldenburg Feldari Nr 62 001.JPG
Oldenburg Feldari Nr 62 010.JPG

Dragoner08
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:51 pm

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by Dragoner08 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:55 am

Bayern
Attachments
Handy November 2015 163.jpg
Handy November 2015 162.jpg

Dragoner08
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:51 pm

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by Dragoner08 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:57 am

Württemberg
Attachments
Pickelhaube Württemberg 001.JPG
Pickelhaube Württemberg blitz 008.JPG

Dragoner08
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:51 pm

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by Dragoner08 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:59 am

Kürassier-Regiment Nr. 2
Attachments
Kürassier 009.JPG
Kürassier 008.JPG

Dragoner08
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:51 pm

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by Dragoner08 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:02 am

76er
Attachments
Pickelhaube 76er 018.JPG
Pickelhaube 76er 008.JPG
Pickelhaube 76er 022.JPG
Pickelhaube 76er 026.JPG

User avatar
poniatowski
Elite Member
Elite Member
Posts: 3650
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:47 pm
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by poniatowski » Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:37 am

Nice helmets all!

:D Ron
I really do need to know more about this....

User avatar
b.loree
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5656
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Ontario CN

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by b.loree » Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:16 am

Thank you to everyone for taking the time to photograph your helmets and post them on this thread. We are very fortunate to have so many helmets to look at and compare. Once again, this is one of the advantages of this digital forum...no book publisher would print 20 pictures of liners. Some observations....it would seem that the most common colours were: cream, rusty brown and various shades of lime green, dark green being the rarest of these. The uber rare colour would seem to be black as we have only one example, which I had never seen before in 30 years of collecting.
A "ribbed silk" is the most common material used, although we do see "watered silk" and satin. We also have one example of a coarse cotton/linen cloth on a pre war officer tschapka. I have seen one other piece with similar coarse cotton cloth. There are also 2 examples of what I believe to be post war helmets with a stiff mesh type patterned material (man made, synthetic). Both these helmets have non scalloped edges to the sweat band. Karel has provided us with one example of a non scalloped liner on his M15 Bavarian Artillery helmet which prevents us from saying that anything without scallops is post war. Gunnar has posted one example with the perforations (small holes) in the front of the sweat band. We have seen this before and discussed it. I believe we decided this was post war production.
Regarding cyphers, we see metal ones which I feel were obviously used by the very wealthy nobility. There are also liners with stamped letters or cyphers in gold on the silk. In addition, some manufacturers embossed their names etc in gold on the sweat band. Finally, the most fancy and therefore, most expensive liner option appears to be the type with woven silk ribbon along the scalloped edge.
This is what I see here, I welcome any further comments from the members.
Remember, Pillage first THEN Burn ...

User avatar
jimturinetti
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:44 pm

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by jimturinetti » Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:49 pm

Does anyone know when officers changed from the leather petals to the silk/cloth lining in the helmets? I've heard that it was the vogue to have silk/cloth lining at the turn of the 20th century. Does anyone know anything about this?

User avatar
Adler
Special Ranks Member
Special Ranks Member
Posts: 1801
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:45 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by Adler » Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:36 am

The leather liner with squared fingers was worn until 1880, then they changed to the more comfotable silk/cloth liners...

Adler
Last edited by Adler on Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
joerookery
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6452
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:25 pm
Location: Pensacola Florida
Contact:

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by joerookery » Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:05 am

The leather liner with squared fingers was worn until 1880, then the changed to the more comfotable silk/cloth liners...
I am not so sure this date is accurate. Certainly that is the date that is used in conventional wisdom however, the leather liner was available at different retailers all the way up to the war. It seems as though the leather one was less expensive. And I agree that the cloth ones were more comfortable. But I do not think it was a sharp date of change. Rather I think it happened over time and still not completely. With more than one helmet in the closet it seems as though one of those would be top floor and the other somewhat more service-oriented.
VR/Joe
www.pickelhauben.net
The British philosopher and historian R.G. Colligwood said, "it is not
the facts that are interesting in history, but the questions and their
answers - and these can never be fixed.

User avatar
Adler
Special Ranks Member
Special Ranks Member
Posts: 1801
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:45 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by Adler » Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:57 pm

Maybe I should have written that the silk/cloth liners were available from 1880 on. I agree there's no exact date and it must have been with a certain tansition time or so...

Adler

User avatar
jimturinetti
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:44 pm

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by jimturinetti » Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:27 pm

Adler and Joe,
Thank you very much for your help. I had thought that it wasn't until 1900. This info will help me a lot.
Jim

User avatar
b.loree
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5656
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Ontario CN

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by b.loree » Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:38 pm

Great posts on this thread gentlemen, thank you all again, for your contributions! I am unaware of anywhere else in the world where such comparisons and information exists.
Remember, Pillage first THEN Burn ...

User avatar
pickelhauben
Exceptional Contributor
Exceptional Contributor
Posts: 827
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:21 pm
Location: New Orleans

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by pickelhauben » Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:36 am

A few months late to the party but there are some beautiful helmets posted here !!!!!!

Thank you all for sharing.

User avatar
b.loree
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5656
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Ontario CN

Re: Officer Silk Liners

Post by b.loree » Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:03 pm

A Prussian General's liner:
IMG_4935.JPG
IMG_4957.JPG
The helmet.
IMG_0887.JPG
An example of the Satin Officer liner.
IMG_5184.JPG
Another Satin example from a Mecklenburg Helme.
IMG_5180.JPG
IMG_5981.JPG
The silk liner removed from the calfskin sweatband. The liner is in 2 halves with 4 creases, one in each corner so it will fit the oval of the shell. The liner is cut larger than the shell so that it can be tack stitched to the scalloped edge of the sweatband. Usually, the small "tack stitches" are found between the scallops. You can see 2 seams where the 2 halves meet, a thin rattan reed was inserted into these which caused the silk to dome up into the shell. Most times these reeds will be broken. The silk was first hand stitched to the sweatband at both ends, then the rest of the liner was tack stitched to the scalloped edge.
IMG_5973.JPG
A near pristine example of a Garde officer liner. Usually these are soiled from use especially if the officer used a hair cream to slick down his hair. The small separations are typical of this ribbed silk cloth. In the worst cases the silk disintegrates into a spaghetti like state! :(
IMG_5932.JPG
The above liner pulled down and out of the mid war Garde shell. Note the small tack stitches and surprisingly the use of an M91 officer kokarde filled in by the cardboard backing. This Garde helmet is from my collection and was brought back by a CN medical officer. It has a pe war wappen and spike but all other fittings are zinc.
Remember, Pillage first THEN Burn ...

Post Reply